What does your life during pandemic look like?
- "It looks very different! I've been travelling the world and writing about football culture and politics for the best part of a decade. So I was always on the move. The last six months of research for 1312 was crazy. It involved a trip to Poland, Croatia, LA, Indonesia, Turkey, Morocco. Sweden! That's all stopped. It's the longest I've been in one place for a long time. But I think I needed that time to recover from 1312. It was an intense book to research and write".
Your mother is Polish, so you have Polish roots. Did you or your mother think of coming to Poland permanently? Why?
- "My mum came to England in the late 1970s. My dad met her at a wedding in Warsaw when his brother was getting married. It's a long story! But once she was in England it was so difficult to return. Flights were crazy expensive. There was marshal law and the general difficulties of travelling to Poland under a Communist dictatorship. I can remember travelling to Poland by ferry and then by train in 1986. The journey was like travelling to a different world. Not Poland per se. When I got there it was so familiar to me. The voices, the food, the culture. I mean the actual journey. Travelling by train through military checkpoints, I guess in East Germany. Seeing machine guns. Having your dad's western newspapers taken away. That makes quite an impression on a seven year old. So, when communism collapsed we talked about mum going back and me going with her. Many Poles can sympathise with the immigrant experience. It can be quite unhappy to be separated from home with no way back. Being an outsider in a country that never fully embraces you. And the English can be cold. I say that as someone with English blood and a Polish heart, to paraphrase Morrissey. But ultimately we decided to stay. She had spent as long living in England as Poland. It was her home now".
Do you like Poland? Are you connected somehow with it? Have you been to Poland only once during the book "The Billionaires Club: The Unstoppable Rise of Football's Super-Rich Owners (Bloomsbury)" premiere?
- "I love Poland. It's my upbringing. It's my mother's tongue. When I hear a woman speaking to her child in Polish it instantly takes me somewhere. It moves something in me. I didn't speak English until I was five (even though my Polish is terrible now). We celebrate Christmas on Christmas Eve. Break Holy Bread. Bless the eggs at Easter. I had a culturally Polish upbringing. So when I visit Poland I feel at home. It also meant that, when I lived in Serbia, I felt instantly at home. It was funny, when The Billionaires Club came out I went to Krakow and a really nice woman from the publisher took me out for lunch. The first place I wanted to go was to a milk bar to eat proper food. But not beetroot soup. I hate beetroot soup because babcia wouldn't let me go out to play unless I'd eaten it. I'm sure that's the psychosomatic reason for it! Anyway, she looked at me like I'd asked to visit an abattoir. But we went. That's what feels like home to me. I've been back since. I did a story for the New York Times about the crisis at Wisla. As soon as this pandemic allows, I'll return".
The book The Billionaires Club: The Unstoppable Rise of Football's Super-Rich Owners (Bloomsbury) was published by Znak, whereas "1312" by SQN. Why is it so?
- "I don't know! My UK publisher arranges that. Znak were wonderful to work with so it certainly wasn't anything from their part".
These two books are about totally different worlds. On the one hand - presidents, owners, billioners, but on the other hand - ultras, hooligans, fans.Two definately different worlds, which are somehow connected...
- "They are two sides of the same coin. With The Billionaires Club I wanted to write a book about how the super-rich controlled the game. It's looking at the game from the top down. 1312 is about the fanatics who have built the modern game from the terraces, from the bottom up. Both world's are intertwined. I write this the day after Manchester United fans stormed the pitch and managed to get the game against Liverpool cancelled after the whole European Super League mess. They want the Glazers out. I was proud seeing that. These two worlds, although separate, are intimately connected".
Maybe the third book will be in the middle - something about the footballers?
- "A few years ago someone brought to my attention the fact that I don't actually write about football. Which is probably true. I'd love to write a biography of a fascinating footballer or coach. It's just finding the right person".
Why are you the journalist and not an ultra fan? Why are you interested in the ultras?
- "Growing up we didn't have ultras really. English casual culture was coming to an end and even though I started out going to West Ham United, and standing on the North Bank, I was too young really to be part of the ICF or anything like that. I do feel an attraction to the ultra scene. I've always bristled against authority. That was, in part, why I became a journalist. At their best journalists challenge power and authority. The relationship between ultras and journalists is not good but I do see some areas where the two could overlap".
How long did the preparations for the book "1312" take? You've travelled halfway around the world...
- "The real meat of my research took place between 2018 and 2019 but some of these stories had been cooking for much longer. I met Ismail Morina, the guy who flew the drone into the stadium in Belgrade in 2015 long before I knew I would be writing the book. Some of my experiences in Egypt come from 2007. I've been following the scene for a long time so I wanted to bring in all of my experiences that were relevant".
You haven't written much about the Polish ultras. In fact, they are the great power. You have mentioned only the Sharks from Wisła Kraków. Why is it so? Were you treated badly? Have you got an access to other groups?
- "I wasn't treated badly. But it was hard to find a way in with the Polish scene. I was amazed at the access I got in Italy, Sweden, Argentina, Ukraine for instance. But I knew that it would be trial and error. That some people would let me in. Some wouldn't. My attempts to write about the Russian scene didn't work out. And that's OK. In Morocco it took me speaking to the wrong person to close all the doors for me. So I came to Krakow to write about the Sharks but it was also a story for the New York Times so it got a lot of coverage. And people were wary of me. I understood that. So after that I decided not to write any stories until i'd finished the book!"
What is the feeling like to speak with the most dangerous people in the world?
- "I'm sure there are more dangerous people in the world! But even those who had a reputation, it wasn't them that felt scary. It was the circle around them that protected them. In Argentina, the process of meeting the head of La Doce was quite frightening. But once I met him he was quite open and friendly".
You have surely spoken to mafia people. What did you feel?
- "The times I met people who were connected to the underworld were the most frightening. I had a little glimpse into that world. Just a glimpse and that was enough.
When and where you were scared the most? Was it in Indonesia?
- "I think so. I genuinely thought I was going to die on the side of a motorway at the hands of some Persib Bandung ultras waving machetes. So I guess you can't be more frightened than that, right?"
Do you keep in touch with these people? Were those meetings the first and the last ones?
- "I try to. For me journalism and writing isn't about dropping into a story and leaving. I live it, and those stories are peoples' lives. They continue after you leave them. So I keep in touch with people long after I've left. Also, I'm just interested in people. Often I've shared a pretty intense moment with them. So we're always connected".
What is your favourite sports book?
- "Norman Mailer's “The Fight” is just magnificent. “My Father and Other Working Class Football Heroes” by Gary Imlach is my go to book when I think about football writing. Also, I know it's cliched but Michal Lewis and Hunter S Thompson when they write about sport. Especially the latter. Because he fails and fucks up a lot and that's part of the story too.
Are you going to write any other books? What about?
- "I hope I'll be writing books until I die. I'm not sure what my next book would be. Part of me would love to write about ustawka. Follow a firm around for a season. It's a tough scene to follow, of course, but I saw some of it in Ukraine and Sweden when I was writing 1312. Maybe something on the European Super League, a kind of sequel to The Billionaires Club AND 1312. I'm still trying to work out what to do next. But I am ready to get back on the road again, that's for sure!"
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